tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post7422325293344537609..comments2023-04-14T01:38:53.420-07:00Comments on Hesses Madhouse: A Subject that Must be FacedUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-29826450519421338062012-01-22T20:51:20.417-08:002012-01-22T20:51:20.417-08:00But what if he (or she) was not running on a gay t...But what if he (or she) was not running on a gay ticket, but just happened to be gay, and was taking the stance of "stop talking about the gay stuff, that's not the point of my presidency, focus on my take on issues and leadership qualities" essentially as Mitt is doing about his controversial religious affiliation? Would that be different or still the same situation?<br /><br />Incidentally, one of my more outspoken gay acquaintances (who has made the choice to live 100% in the guidelines of faithful LDS standards, is married and a father now) is <em>really</em> upset about the claims which say it's unnatural/dangerous/wrong to try to change behavior because he says that is demeaning to him, and discriminating against gays because essentially it's saying they're too weak to resist natural tendencies they feel, like everyone else is expected to in their lives, which is an interesting counterpoint to hear.vaxhackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08230489514627637967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-55415932040708805052012-01-22T18:44:45.035-08:002012-01-22T18:44:45.035-08:00So here are my final 2 installments.
http://those...So here are my final 2 installments.<br /><br />http://thoserobertsons.blogspot.com/2012/01/who-i-am-and-why-i-stand-where-i-do_19.html<br /><br />http://thoserobertsons.blogspot.com/2012/01/who-i-am-and-why-i-stand-where-i-do_2869.html<br /><br />A quick conclusion: choice is involved in homosexuality. Even the APA states so. 2. If we let go of the religious voice to be "loving, enlightened, or on the right side of history" we are hurting those who do not want to be gay but are told they are, or are, and want to quit. 3. The homosexual activists proselyte as much as religions do. <br /><br />So would I vote for a gay president: 100% NO WAY! Because if a president is running on a gay ticket, he is there to change the laws. Everywhere gay marriage is legal and even places it is not, sexual freedom trumps religious freedom. They cannot stand together. Statistics alone prove that religion is better for society than free-sex, or sex without consequences.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410224281751216152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-44401584090555667562012-01-18T14:25:01.025-08:002012-01-18T14:25:01.025-08:00I think Grace brings up a great point, but I disag...I think Grace brings up a great point, but I disagree with the particular application of it. Because I was born heterosexual (which is "a certain way") and I never had to choose whether I would like men, or whether I would like women. It is hardwired into me. It is who I am. My choices, as I think you pointed out Julie, are other choices: like, do I wait for marriage to act physically on those feelings? How much do I do before marriage? Etc.<br /><br />But I didn't <i>choose</i> to be heterosexual any more than the people I personally know who are gay <i>chose</i> that. We just <i>are</i>.Alysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13227873855990198122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-81512460578729869432012-01-18T07:38:50.385-08:002012-01-18T07:38:50.385-08:00I have begun writing about this issue. It is going...I have begun writing about this issue. It is going to be in 3 and maybe 4 parts. I have parts 1 and 2 written. It is so long because I am beginning by discussing my history with homosexuality. Here are the first 2 parts. I hopefully will have this finished within the next 24 hours.<br /><br />http://thoserobertsons.blogspot.com/2012/01/who-i-am-and-why-i-stand-where-i-do.html<br /><br />http://thoserobertsons.blogspot.com/2012/01/who-i-am-and-why-i-stand-where-i-do_18.htmlJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410224281751216152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-24845590666921351972012-01-17T18:21:35.796-08:002012-01-17T18:21:35.796-08:00I really enjoyed this post. I think you said every...I really enjoyed this post. I think you said everything in a way that no matter if you agree or not with the main issue...that no one should be offended. I wish I was better at that.<br /><br />I also am enjoying the continuing discussion in the comments. Here's how I look at the "born that way" argument.<br /><br />My daughter is a Type 1 Diabetic, which they say she was born with that tendency until it finally developed at 12. As a diabetic, she has to make certain choices to remain healthy. Learning to live life with this disease has been a challenge. By no means am I saying being gay is a disease, just likening the point of being born with a challenge and making a choice. If she chose to not be good to her body, there would be consequences.<br /><br />I've always thought about men and women being two parts of a puzzle, that fit together in a right way... personality-wise and other ways. Ying to the Yang, if you will. My husband makes up for my shortcomings and vice-versa.<br /><br />In regards to Agency, I think that a lot of times people forget that while we have the agency to choose, we don't get to choose the consequences. They are what they are. We have to live with them.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14775357852517545722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-67447527141863871512012-01-17T17:19:20.542-08:002012-01-17T17:19:20.542-08:00I think, Grace, that much of our purpose here is t...I think, Grace, that much of our purpose here is to learn to control ourselves. Agency is provided for us to be able to learn. If my grandfather was an alcoholic and I knew I had the propensity toward this in my DNA, I'd avoid alcohol. Yes, I have the choice to do it, but why would I? It could be disastrous to my life. We have agency to do good with and to do evil with. <br /><br />Diane, I've been waiting for someone to express other opinions on this. I look forward to reading what you have to share. Please let me know when you do. Thanks!Hesses Madhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988796143736645049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-64578252490150142782012-01-17T16:49:41.743-08:002012-01-17T16:49:41.743-08:00You spoke your heart and soul BEAUTIFULLY!
I agre...You spoke your heart and soul BEAUTIFULLY!<br /><br />I agree with what you said wholeheartedly. I just could never have said it as well. <br /><br />I think having feelings towards others of the same sex would be one of the worst trials to face. Who you choose to love and spend your life with becomes such a HUGE part of who you are. And to have to choose to either act on or deny those feelings would just be really, really tough. <br /><br />I can't even imagine.Tonyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17970846890529011471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-31416893862153458332012-01-17T16:08:17.383-08:002012-01-17T16:08:17.383-08:00Agency is key to the plan of happiness. why would ...Agency is key to the plan of happiness. why would a loving Heavenly Father give us something to deal with that would take our agency away from us? Agency is an eternal law and without it we can not choose how we will react. Instead we are left only to be reacted upon. the proclamation on the family definitely speaks to this as well.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13674688019997168479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-40547808081308129992012-01-17T15:44:11.742-08:002012-01-17T15:44:11.742-08:00I have a lot to say on this topic. I have been pla...I have a lot to say on this topic. I have been planning on writing a blog post on this myself. So I think that is just what I'll do, and then I'll give you a link otherwise, this could take up way too much space. I don't disagree. I don't think I agree 100% either. Maybe we do.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05410224281751216152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-70895897295045603742012-01-17T14:38:36.651-08:002012-01-17T14:38:36.651-08:00Hmm. Interesting point, Grace. So, what I'm ...Hmm. Interesting point, Grace. So, what I'm getting from what you've written is that if we are created to have certain tendencies, which we all are, and then aren't allowed to use our agency for those things, agency loses its purpose, is that right? I want to make sure I have this right before I comment.Hesses Madhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988796143736645049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-2517010675116225352012-01-17T14:33:55.429-08:002012-01-17T14:33:55.429-08:00i just taught a lesson on agency last week for sun...i just taught a lesson on agency last week for sunday school. the lessson states that next to life itself, God's greatest gift given to us is agency to choose how we will react to any given situation. I don't want to start a issue but just a thought. IF someone had attractions towards the same sex, yet did not act on those feelings, from my understanding, according to what Elder Holland stated, there is no sin. <br />Also another point referring to agency. If we were "born" a certain way, where and how could we use our agency? We couldn't and that would be contrary to what the Plan.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13674688019997168479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-89633109680432077742012-01-17T13:36:52.646-08:002012-01-17T13:36:52.646-08:00I'm glad you pointed out the difference betwee...I'm glad you pointed out the difference between attraction/orientation and sin. The church doesn't consider it a problem to <em>have</em> same-sex attraction, but holds all its members, gay or straight (or...) to the same standards of moral behavior. Those standards won't match everyone's desires or deeply-rooted drives. Then again, sexual morality isn't the only place you can have that conflict, either. <br /><br />Just saying "you chose this lifestyle, stop doing that" is not, in my opinion, correct or helpful. I've seen the pain people have gone through in their lives to sort these things out. We're still a long way from truly understanding what causes different people to be attracted in different ways, but it's clearly not just a choice of lifestyle, at least not for a bunch of people (maybe it is for some, I don't know).<br /><br />That said, of the handful of people I personally know in this situation, a couple of them reached a point in their lives where they decided that however difficult a road it would be to travel, they believed strongly in the standards and covenants they entered with God, and that meant more to them than their mortal desires and comfort. And to their credit, they've held onto that decision, marrying in the temple (to spouses who in my opinion are incredibly understanding people--can you imagine the sacrifice of entering a marriage with a partner who loves you, is faithful to you, cares for you, is your best friend and dear companion, but will never truly be attracted to you?)<br /><br />That's not an easy road, even to the extent I understand it from their discussions about it, but they're doing it. That's incomprehensible to many, I know, who say you just have to give in to your desires and not suppress them. But what about the other people I've talked to who claimed that their orientation is polyamorous? They say just as strongly that they can't cope with expressing their desires in any other manner, and it would be an emotionally damaging thing to repress that. <br /><br />The list could go on, but really, there are serious challenges we ALL face in our lives. Some of them are sexual attraction for people that, if acted upon, would violate a commandment somewhere (even the going trend of the world for couples of all orientations to freely indulge sexually with each other without regard for marriage or other "outdated" ideas). I feel for those with SSA having to make hard choices in their lives to reconcile these with the other standards of behavior they choose to adopt, it can't be easy.<br /><br />I just hope that anyone struggling with these issues knows that they don't deserve to be judged or outcast from the LDS community just because they have these feelings and attractions, and help is certainly available to help them face these difficult circumstances and cope with all that entails.<br /><br />Echoing what Alyson said, my transgender friend struggled with what to do for a long time before finally deciding to undergo the surgery to physically change her sex to what she felt inside it was supposed to be. She related to me at the time that she would do anything, give anything, not to feel that way, and honestly didn't know if something happened during early development to confuse the biological settings of what gender she felt, or if a different problem made her body form the "wrong" way, or what. Her final thought to me about that was, "I have faith that in the end, God will work it out, and I'll be resurrected with whatever sex I was supposed to be, and I don't care which it is, but I'll be in harmony with myself either way and this terrible conflict will be over."<br /><br />Those of us who are straight and haven't tasted from the cup of trials these people have gone through have no place passing quick judgment on them, saying that they simply "made a choice" because they liked that better.vaxhackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08230489514627637967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-83825105107687005232012-01-17T11:00:03.775-08:002012-01-17T11:00:03.775-08:00Several people very close to me are gay. So for me...Several people <i>very</i> close to me are gay. So for me this is not a hypothetical exercise, I have had to search and learn in a very real way. I do not for a second believe the "sexual orientation is a choice, and they can choose to be righteous" stance taken by the Church in former years. Several of the people I know would literally give their lives if they could just choose. But I agree with what you've said—there is a great difference, and a dividing line, between <i>having</i> feelings and <i> acting</i>.Alysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13227873855990198122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-65738085519089215422012-01-17T10:23:00.094-08:002012-01-17T10:23:00.094-08:00very well said Julie. You put a ton of stuff in o...very well said Julie. You put a ton of stuff in one message. A couple thoughts came to my mind as I read this. First, referring to those with same-sex attraction. Do you remember the article in the Ensign written by Elder Holland? I believe it was in the Fall of 07. It touched on this subject very well. Also a talk given by President Bensen some time back in which he said we are to love all. We do not have to condone or accept the lifestyle though. I have a good friend who lived a gay lifestyle for 30+ years. In just the past 8 years he has done a 180. We have talked a great deal about what made him change and why he is now much happier living a heterosexual life. I think what it all comes down to is there is no easy way but to love everyone and just try to be understanding. We are told over and over again not to judge. I find that one of my toughest weaknesses. I don't know if it's just because I am a woman or what. But I think women in general find this to be a tough one. I find myself telling my kids all the time..be open minded. Try to understand why so in so is acting the way they are. maybe they are dealing with things that are horrible. We just don't know. Anyone...sorry for rambling on here. great post Julie! :)Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13674688019997168479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-18852580364262219682012-01-17T10:22:43.658-08:002012-01-17T10:22:43.658-08:00I like how you worded this. I have always been ac...I like how you worded this. I have always been accepting of everyone around me and have strived to understand them. I often find myself frustrated when others judge and attempt to "educate" them to my way of thinking. Your blog made me think about that I don't need to understand them to accept them. I am speaking of all differences, not just homosexuality. And that, while it is ok to share my reason for my feelings and beliefs, I need to except others for their opinions.kristihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06925910687708829627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-73319915090534618512012-01-17T10:07:53.820-08:002012-01-17T10:07:53.820-08:00Well put Julie!Well put Julie!Crazymamaof6https://www.blogger.com/profile/12010784861707678433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8902028401538647352.post-76769061440914183742012-01-17T10:04:24.644-08:002012-01-17T10:04:24.644-08:00Well said! I completely agree!Well said! I completely agree!7mottoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12880285133324267156noreply@blogger.com